Chat Transcript:

[15:49:54] fingolfin says: core is slow and that map doesnt have much metal close by
[15:50:00] fingolfin says: so their start would be very tough indeed
[15:50:01] The_Rogue says: i would have terrorised you with my flashes
[15:50:06] fingolfin says: yeah
[15:50:07] fingolfin says: we should try it
[15:50:13] The_Rogue says: yeah
[15:50:16] The_Rogue says: give it a few mins
[15:50:17] fingolfin says: btw, did u see the test version on the website?
[15:50:23] The_Rogue says: dunno
[15:50:38] fingolfin says: http://tabugfix.wordpress.com/alphabeta-builds/
[15:50:49] fingolfin says: i was playing with balancing
[15:50:59] fingolfin says: gave core more powerful anti-emg defence
[15:51:01] The_Rogue says: yeah make the immolator more powerful….
[15:51:02] fingolfin says: (immolator)
[15:51:10] fingolfin says: also we enhanced spies
[15:51:15] fingolfin says: and also the transports
[15:51:31] fingolfin says: i managed to get transported units to shoot mid-air
[15:51:37] fingolfin says: but it might be a bit too powerful
[15:51:49] The_Rogue says: oh awesome
[15:52:01] fingolfin says: also i might have found a way to make transports load stuff quickly
[15:52:13] fingolfin says: like… 6-10 units with 1 or 2 clicks
[15:52:20] fingolfin says: so u could do proper air drops
[15:52:23] The_Rogue says: awesome
[15:52:28] The_Rogue says: and this was you and?
[15:52:35] fingolfin says: it’s hard though, i need to speak to stan and some TA guys
[15:52:44] The_Rogue says: ah yes
[15:52:46] fingolfin says: well i noticed in a mod someone had done something similar
[15:52:48] fingolfin says: using a hack
[15:52:52] fingolfin says: but i must adapt it
[15:53:01] fingolfin says: somehow…
[15:53:10] fingolfin says: stan is busy these days
[15:54:14] The_Rogue says: yeah
[15:54:28] The_Rogue says: hes behind on his project
[15:58:46] fingolfin says: i made flying sumos
[15:58:50] fingolfin says: it was quite funny
[15:58:54] The_Rogue says: …
[15:59:01] The_Rogue says: so how do you go about modding this game?
[15:59:16] fingolfin says: u have to get the editor stuff
[15:59:27] fingolfin says: i only do basic stuff, changing the unit stats etc
[15:59:35] fingolfin says: not the actual anims or textures, etc
[15:59:43] The_Rogue says: …
[16:03:37] fingolfin says: what i’d like to do, is make it so that units auto radar-target, but find a way to make it very inaccurate
[16:03:43] fingolfin says: i thought supcom should have had this
[16:04:11] fingolfin says: so, u dont have so much micro, units WILL shoot at radar items, but also u can move them into LOS for 100% accuracy
[16:04:46] The_Rogue says: i would think that having a radar lock would make something more acurate
[16:05:05] The_Rogue says: but it would depend on distance from the radar i guess
[16:05:14] fingolfin says: well, even if true, that’s not what we see already in TA/supcom
[16:05:19] fingolfin says: ie. if u have radr-targ
[16:05:27] fingolfin says: then it just shoots as if it was on LOS
[16:05:34] fingolfin says: But i think it should be progressive
[16:05:37] fingolfin says: would be nice for gameplay
[16:05:56] The_Rogue says: lets try not to get ahead of ourselves
[16:06:18] The_Rogue says: and i think i might know the thing that ta has that supcom doesn’t
[16:06:29] The_Rogue says: and it relates to the graphics
[16:06:41] fingolfin says: how so?
[16:06:58] The_Rogue says: in ta everything looks solid
[16:07:04] The_Rogue says: units collide with it
[16:07:06] The_Rogue says: they go around
[16:07:16] The_Rogue says: in supcom units collide with it or go through it
[edit]
[16:07:41] The_Rogue says: which i sprobab;y a bad explanation
[16:07:50] fingolfin says: the graphics are a bit… weak in supcom, i don’t mean in the ‘pretty’ dept, but in the ‘good for explosions and war’ dept
[16:07:58] fingolfin says: no no i understand entirely
[16:08:06] fingolfin says: esp. being that im not a ‘graphics man’
[16:08:11] The_Rogue says: yeah i know
[16:08:13] fingolfin says: it’s all about gameplay for me
[16:08:23] The_Rogue says: but i feel the graphics change the entire feel of the game
[16:08:36] The_Rogue says: but when you look at the original supcom screenshots
[edit]
[16:08:43] The_Rogue says: you can kind of relate to ta
[16:08:44] fingolfin says: like… just as in GUI/UI design (i.e ipods, windows), so should games be tailored around the game mechanics
[16:09:03] fingolfin says: so, the graphics are a natural extension of the gameplay, not just a mask
[16:09:10] The_Rogue says: yeah
[16:09:21] The_Rogue says: and ta has that
[16:09:45] The_Rogue says: cos reading the making of ta stuff a while ago
[16:09:53] The_Rogue says: it seams the game came first
[16:09:56] The_Rogue says: then the graphics
[16:09:59] fingolfin says: well it was 10 guys in a basement
[16:10:11] fingolfin says: so it was so gameplay focused, so intimate
[16:10:31] fingolfin says: FA is better than Supcom, but still missing something
[16:10:43] fingolfin says: it’s partly the graphics, partly i think the balance
[16:10:49] The_Rogue says: yeah
[16:11:05] fingolfin says: for example, in TA lv1 units are useful throughout the game, as troop support, fodder etc, they compliment lv2/lv3
[16:11:13] fingolfin says: but in supcom the progression is too strict
[16:11:14] The_Rogue says: I think think the original screenshots of supcom look better than the game does now
[16:11:23] The_Rogue says: in a gameplay perspective
[16:11:36] fingolfin says: yes in some ways they do, more… cartoony in a way, but solid, chunky, fun and cool
[16:11:46] The_Rogue says: and the explosions had volume
[16:12:02] The_Rogue says: and they were also explosions
[16:12:06] fingolfin says: right, not just effect, actual physics that you ‘felt’ like in TA
[16:12:12] The_Rogue says: not just a white flare
[16:12:15] The_Rogue says: white*
[16:13:37] fingolfin says: if u read my rts concept on the website i have sketched my ideas for a next-gen rts
[16:13:53] fingolfin says: i am currently working on an idea about veterancy
[16:14:01] fingolfin says: i have pages of notes i need to type up
[16:14:19] The_Rogue says: …
[16:14:24] fingolfin says: basically, the idea is that it has ‘organic’ and natural progressiveness to it
[16:14:26] The_Rogue says: you put a lot of thought into this
[16:14:36] fingolfin says: yeah, i don’t sleep much…
[16:14:47] fingolfin says: you should see the notes i have on games controllers
[16:15:12] The_Rogue says: you need to get some programmer friends that enjoy the same or similar opinions to you
[16:15:20] The_Rogue says: and start making a game
[16:15:23] fingolfin says: yeah it would be cool
[16:15:32] fingolfin says: but i know almost zero about programming
[16:15:35] fingolfin says: even my maths sucks
[edit]

[16:15:49] The_Rogue says: so get some programmer friends
[16:15:59] The_Rogue says: talk to introversion
[16:16:10] The_Rogue says: they might be interested
[16:16:12] The_Rogue says: maybe
[16:16:20] fingolfin says: introversion?
[16:16:28] The_Rogue says: yeah the game company
[16:16:31] The_Rogue says: they made darwinia
[16:16:55] fingolfin says: they’re British too it seems
[16:17:06] The_Rogue says: there an indie developer that valve took on board
[16:17:44] fingolfin says: i have looked into every open source/indie rts game design i can find on the net, they all do the same thing, just make the same mistakes other rts’ made, just adding a few more pointless features
[16:18:29] The_Rogue says: http://www.introversion.co.uk/blog/archive.php
[16:18:32] The_Rogue says: read some of these
[16:18:36] fingolfin says: i have a totally unique idea for an rts, beyond what they tried in supcom, but i dont have the technical skills to be able to explain it in programming language/meths etc
[16:18:39] fingolfin says: *maths
[edit]

[16:26:32] The_Rogue says: all of these urban sports thing are hilarious
[16:26:49] fingolfin says: anyway the idea i want to integrate into rts is that everything u do has a balanced or traceable affect in the game, and everything is progressive, smooth. this is achieved by avoiding arbitrary numbers, things like hitpoints or tech trees etc, traditionally these things are static, i want to make them scalable and you need the right mechanics to do it
[16:27:30] fingolfin says: also i ant the game to appeal as much to casual as hardcore gamers, so the idea is that you can kind of sit back and watch the battles unfold, planning your attacks and so on, but not in the way it’s done today
[16:28:00] fingolfin says: another example of this ‘progressive’ play would be the resource system
[16:28:22] The_Rogue says: If we can make this game on a scale so that a number of players can play  on the earth, generated to scale… with a similar process to creating weapons as we have in real life
[16:28:28] The_Rogue says: that would be awesome
[16:28:30] fingolfin says: it is single-resource, split up into production or research, depending on player pref. the resource is tied directly to expansion
[16:28:57] fingolfin says: well i did have ideas for an RTS-MMo thing but i dont think it’s technically feasible for another 10yrs or so
[16:29:00] The_Rogue says: and type of resource effects on thee effectiveness of your units
[16:29:14] fingolfin says: in 10yrs, i think games will be located on the actual server, not run on the pc
[16:29:17] fingolfin says: yes
[16:29:19] The_Rogue says: there just starting to figure out quantum computers now
[16:29:41] fingolfin says: like, if u claim territory, it auto-generates resources as u build upon it, u dont have silly mass points and so on
[16:29:51] The_Rogue says: and the computing power of those rise exponentially with every bit you add
[16:29:57] fingolfin says: right
[16:30:22] The_Rogue says: i think if you claim territory you have to find the resources
[16:30:28] The_Rogue says: such as iron ore deposits
[16:30:41] fingolfin says: no no, u see i dont want that kind of gameplay
[16:30:48] fingolfin says: it’s too finicky, too micro orientated
[16:30:54] fingolfin says: who cares if it’s iron or energy right?
[16:30:58] fingolfin says: u just wanna blow shit up
[16:30:59] The_Rogue says: but make it largely automated
[16:31:04] The_Rogue says: to you it is resources
[16:31:06] fingolfin says: so, i make resources automated
[16:31:10] fingolfin says: yeah
[16:31:26] fingolfin says: so, when u lay a ‘base unit’ it starts generating resources
[16:31:36] The_Rogue says: but if you zoom way in it is lots of little people mining different resources and takign them to the factories were they are turned into units
[16:31:39] fingolfin says: and as u build u have to protect stuff
[16:31:57] The_Rogue says: i see what you mean
[16:32:02] The_Rogue says: make it largely automated
[16:32:11] fingolfin says: kind of, there are issues with auto building units to gather stuff, but it’s almost what i have in mind, it’s hard to describe here
[16:32:15] fingolfin says: yeah
[16:32:23] fingolfin says: there would be more generic units
[16:32:28] The_Rogue says: what i mean is you say build mines in this area
[16:32:32] fingolfin says: which are then customised according to in game decisions
[16:32:40] The_Rogue says: and the compute figures out optimal mine spots
[16:32:43] The_Rogue says: and builds the mines
[16:32:52] The_Rogue says: etc etc
[16:32:53] fingolfin says: you see, i dont even have mine spots
[16:32:58] fingolfin says: i dont think it’s even needed
[16:33:00] The_Rogue says: so all you ahve to do is tell things where to go
[16:33:05] fingolfin says: what i have is just land, with stuff on it, or water
[16:33:14] fingolfin says: and it just has a general value
[16:33:28] The_Rogue says: if you refer to this as a map on world scale
[16:33:32] fingolfin says: and u cn use it quickly and destroy it, or use it carefully, not make as much but preserve it
[16:33:35] The_Rogue says: you are zoomed right out
[16:33:37] fingolfin says: maps would be large yes
[16:33:50] The_Rogue says: all the stuff that happens zoomed right in is on auto pretty much
[16:34:09] The_Rogue says: but affected by your decisions from afar
[16:34:42] fingolfin says: well, i have ‘global’ and ‘local’ actions
[16:34:46] fingolfin says: and subsets of each
[16:35:02] The_Rogue says: its hard to represent it in words
[16:35:02] fingolfin says: so u can very generally tell ur units that u r at war, and they go up a notch in terms of aggression etc
[16:35:03] fingolfin says: or
[16:35:08] fingolfin says: you can be very specific locally
[16:35:14] The_Rogue says: yeah
[16:35:16] The_Rogue says: zoomed right out
[16:35:17] The_Rogue says: or in
[16:35:21] The_Rogue says: your choice
[16:35:22] fingolfin says: but each works with the other
[16:35:24] fingolfin says: right
[16:35:52] The_Rogue says: as you would want to be zoomed in in certain situations
[16:36:06] The_Rogue says: while remaining zoomed out overall to keep everything under control
[16:36:11] fingolfin says: also there is very little micro of units, only key intervention in certain areas, but it does depend heavily on large numbers, one would need to get that emergent dynamic
[16:36:40] The_Rogue says: you could kind of merge this into a fps situation
[16:36:49] The_Rogue says: you give orders to people on the field
[16:37:01] The_Rogue says: who command the masses
[16:37:08] fingolfin says: stan has an idea similar to that
[16:37:23] fingolfin says: but it doesn’t blend well with my idea for veterancy and rogue units
[16:37:26] fingolfin says: brb
[16:37:35] The_Rogue says: well it can
[16:37:59] The_Rogue says: your person can decide they don’t wanna do waht oyu say on start killing your units and stuff
[16:38:35] The_Rogue says: and veterancy would give the people and those directly under them benefits and soforth
[16:41:01] fingolfin says: it’s hard to do, AI wise and also logistics and avoiding micro (which i personally try to do)
[16:41:13] fingolfin says: my idea of veterancy also follows the prog. rule
[16:41:19] fingolfin says: so, u dont get vet from kills alone
[16:41:28] fingolfin says: it counts mostly on damage done, and to which units
[16:41:37] fingolfin says: ie. to units with higher vet u get more vet, etc
[16:43:27] fingolfin says: also, there is an interesting dynamic, whereby a certain fluke run, ie - lots of vet in a given time by a certain unit, gives it a temporary power up or upgrade/enhancement of some sort
[16:44:05] The_Rogue says: yeah
[16:44:14] fingolfin says: so u have to scan the battlefield watching for interesting occurrences
[16:44:17] The_Rogue says: such as a particularly good bombing or artillery barrage
[16:44:25] fingolfin says: and it adds to the randomness, the emergent property
[16:44:36] The_Rogue says: but such occurrences should be pointed out to you
[16:44:38] fingolfin says: but, ill need lots of units, and almost constant battle
[16:44:44] The_Rogue says: if your watching
[16:44:45] fingolfin says: it would be almost a constant attrition war
[16:44:59] fingolfin says: yes like i said u dont HAVE to intercept the unit
[16:45:33] fingolfin says: but what u might do, for example, is chose to exchange the power-up, like preserve it for a future time, or convert it to extra veterancy, or resources, or group all the best vet units toegther into a supergroup
[16:45:45] fingolfin says: and also, the groups themselves are more than the sum of their parts
[16:45:52] fingolfin says: this is something i talked to stan about
[16:46:00] fingolfin says: he has a very good idea about grouping and UI
[16:46:03] The_Rogue says: or you can press the vets into battle further to gain extra footing
[16:46:05] fingolfin says: and this is also my main focus in the ga,er
[16:46:06] fingolfin says: *game
[16:46:18] fingolfin says: right, or just let them be ya know…
[16:46:34] The_Rogue says: that would be the biggest problem in this game
[16:46:36] The_Rogue says: the ui
[16:46:46] fingolfin says: the groups would be a central part of the game, there would be no numbering system, it’s all part of the UI, fully integrated
[16:46:58] fingolfin says: u can have 100 or 2, or 100 groups with 1000 sub groups
[16:47:04] fingolfin says: and all doing things
[16:47:28] fingolfin says: i have a special ’strict/loose’ mechanism which took me weeks to come up with
[16:47:31] The_Rogue says: and you would only see the sub groups as you zoomed in
[16:47:41] fingolfin says: whereby u can automate lots of stuff without micro, it’s very intuitive
[16:47:51] fingolfin says: yes, but also it has UI representation
[16:47:59] The_Rogue says: so while zoomed out you might just see a few groups being your forces
[16:48:02] fingolfin says: the main thing is that it’s visual
[16:48:13] fingolfin says: and u dont lose orders/commands by accidentally clicking etc
[16:48:23] fingolfin says: so u have a sort of ‘history’ panel, like in photoshop etc
[16:48:32] The_Rogue says: but as you zoomed in the subgroups came up dividing the seperate companies and units and such
[16:48:40] fingolfin says: and that can aggregate orders, tactics, build commands etc
[16:48:44] fingolfin says: well, kinda
[16:48:49] fingolfin says: i have the drawings on the website
[16:48:53] fingolfin says: well, only the drafts
[16:48:56] fingolfin says: check em out
[16:49:02] fingolfin says: i think i have 2 or 3 basic ones there
[16:49:05] The_Rogue says: but representing that on the screen so that it is unobtrusive is gonna be difficult
[16:49:13] fingolfin says: it’s a groups-within-groups system
[16:49:18] fingolfin says: yes
[16:49:29] fingolfin says: i had to come up with a very intuitive minimal design
[16:49:40] fingolfin says: so u dont have lots of crap on screen u dont need
[16:50:06] The_Rogue says: you should submit your resume to a few game companies
[16:50:11] fingolfin says: basically, u hde groups within groups, only seeing the subsets when u select the ‘top’ group, represented as smaller circlets connected to the top group outline
[16:50:23] fingolfin says: then u select a circle and it selects (color coordinated) the sub group
[16:50:32] fingolfin says: ah man noone would hire me! thanks tho.
[16:50:42] fingolfin says: they might steel some shit though…
[16:50:53] The_Rogue says: i dunno
[16:50:59] The_Rogue says: introversion might like you
[16:51:18] The_Rogue says: or valve
[16:51:44] fingolfin says: that’s why i figure the best way is to start a website and get all the stuff on there, dates and checked, so if some bastard copies my ideas, i have evidence that at least i was the person who influenced them, even if i dont get to see any money or have any input
[16:51:50] fingolfin says: valve rings a bell
[16:51:55] fingolfin says: *dated
[16:52:15] fingolfin says: i also, believe it or not, have a full storyline behind it hehe
[16:52:23] fingolfin says: but it’s pretty sucky
[16:52:25] The_Rogue says: oh awesome
[16:52:56] fingolfin says: one of the coolest features is imo is that u dont have to worry about balancing issues so much
[16:53:06] fingolfin says: because basically, u define ur faction on the fly
[16:53:32] fingolfin says: so u all have access to the same tech etc, but when u make a choice in blocks out other trees, or at least makes them harder to get, but opens others
[16:53:39] The_Rogue says: so it depends on your strategies not the power of your untis
[16:53:44] fingolfin says: so u have one player decides to be more stealthy and sea-based
[16:53:48] fingolfin says: right, exactly
[16:54:00] The_Rogue says: you could have the most powerful units
[16:54:02] fingolfin says: the other maybe chooses to go for short range weapons, and eco
[16:54:11] The_Rogue says: but the weaker player wins cos he is more strategically adept
[16:54:18] fingolfin says: yeah, most powerful, or just lots of them, or be very specialised, or generalised
[16:54:23] fingolfin says: depending on your style etc
[16:54:30] The_Rogue says: just look back at previous wars in our history
[16:54:41] fingolfin says: or, u can micro like crazy, but neglect ur macro, or macro but lose key battles etc
[16:54:50] fingolfin says: so many fucking possibilities
[16:55:00] fingolfin says: i just stay up at night scribbling this crap
[16:55:03] fingolfin says: *scribbling
[16:55:08] The_Rogue says: …
[16:55:23] fingolfin says: you actually conquer the micro/macro issue if u get the scale and mechanics right
[16:55:24] The_Rogue says: well when i’m rich and powerful
[16:55:41] The_Rogue says: i’ll buy you a games development team
[16:55:47] fingolfin says: haha awesome, ill hold u to that
[16:55:51] The_Rogue says: and have the do what you want
[16:56:02] fingolfin says: id want will wright as deputy
[16:56:10] fingolfin says: and chris taylor as general advisor
[16:56:10] The_Rogue says: ok
[16:56:17] The_Rogue says: rgr that
[16:56:20] fingolfin says: peter molyneux as coffee boy
[16:56:46] The_Rogue says: I think the valve team should be in it as well
[16:56:55] The_Rogue says: they know how to make an idea into a great game
[16:57:41] The_Rogue says: another thing to about units
[16:57:45] The_Rogue says: adaptivity
[16:58:17] The_Rogue says: veterans are better suited for the environments the became veterans in
[16:58:35] The_Rogue says: if your army loses a battle your unit production changes to counter that loss
[16:58:44] The_Rogue says: more or less automatically
[16:58:50] fingolfin says: i have the idea that units are basically chaotic but in enough numbers they work well, like ants in a hive, which is why emergent behaviour is so key
[16:58:58] fingolfin says: also
[16:59:21] fingolfin says: they can take and dish out actual damage, i mean not silly hit points, but physical damage
[16:59:38] fingolfin says: so we have very cute simple looking circular units right? and they have been cutomised with i dunno, lasers or something
[16:59:48] fingolfin says: and then one shoots the other and actually cuts off part of it
[16:59:55] fingolfin says: and u have inside a core module
[16:59:57] The_Rogue says: such as a the right shot on a tank can completely destroy it, disable it, or do no damage
[17:00:00] fingolfin says: which is the cell
[17:00:05] fingolfin says: yes exactly
[17:00:08] The_Rogue says: depending on the location a severity of the shot
[17:00:15] fingolfin says: again, it maintains the progressive thinking
[17:00:25] fingolfin says: also, if u notice looking at my grouping sketches
[17:00:37] fingolfin says: u can see i have ^ < > V settings
[17:00:37] The_Rogue says: but you would need one mighty comp to even get a small battle going
[17:00:43] fingolfin says: to make the units turn and face directions
[17:00:50] fingolfin says: so u can attack the side or vulnerable parts#
[17:01:05] fingolfin says: im not so sure, the physics in it would only be TA complex
[17:01:10] fingolfin says: not as complex as supcom for example
[17:01:13] fingolfin says: and much more 2d
[17:01:14] The_Rogue says: that should happen automatically as units become more experienced
[17:01:28] fingolfin says: well as the vet increases, the units could actually grow
[17:01:35] fingolfin says: so u visually see them
[17:01:40] fingolfin says: again, cuts out micro and UI
[17:01:56] fingolfin says: u just visually behold the battle and just fucking KNOW what;’s going on
[17:02:00] fingolfin says: no stupid sub menus or complex clicking
[17:02:07] The_Rogue says: the only way to really figure this out
[17:02:11] The_Rogue says: is to do it
[17:02:13] fingolfin says: the units and buildings actually BECOME the UI
[17:02:16] fingolfin says: in a strange way
[17:02:18] The_Rogue says: create a small simulated battle
[17:02:24] fingolfin says: everything becomes contextual
[17:02:27] The_Rogue says: and test concepts on it
[17:02:30] fingolfin says: yeah
[17:02:34] fingolfin says: like a mini sandbox game
[17:02:39] The_Rogue says: yeah
[17:02:48] fingolfin says: that’s what id like, even made in flash or something
[17:02:49] The_Rogue says: which can then be expanded onto the full game
[17:02:57] The_Rogue says: thats an idea
[17:03:01] fingolfin says: you’re on the bus, yeah
[17:03:09] The_Rogue says: huh?
[17:03:14] fingolfin says: expression
[17:03:20] The_Rogue says: thought so
[17:03:23] fingolfin says: means, you follow, you’re diggin it
[17:03:34] The_Rogue says: yep
[17:03:45] The_Rogue says: lets go out and learn to program in flash
[17:03:52] The_Rogue says: build ourselves a little simulation
[17:03:56] The_Rogue says: then change it
[17:04:15] The_Rogue says: then once we’ve figured that out
[17:04:22] The_Rogue says: get stan to program us an engine
[17:04:25] fingolfin says: also, another amazing thing that happens when u start to make rts in this way, i realized, is that u can start to think seriously about random terrain generation
[17:04:45] fingolfin says: because the land is huge right, and resources are directly linked to expansion
[17:04:55] The_Rogue says: yes
[17:04:58] fingolfin says: and so u pick a place with advantages, like a mountain
[17:05:08] fingolfin says: now, not much resources there, BUT, the strat value is high
[17:05:21] The_Rogue says: and to keep it interesting you generate a new map each time
[17:05:25] fingolfin says: and this is much more so than in supcom or TA, where land is still kind of just… a novelty
[17:05:29] fingolfin says: right
[17:05:42] fingolfin says: u can randomly generate terrain because u dont have to worry about mass spots etc anymore
[17:05:55] The_Rogue says: this kind of game would be awesome with many players
[17:05:58] fingolfin says: u just have some basic algorithms saying that u need a clear area around the start point
[17:06:16] fingolfin says: well, the other thing i like, but not many others seem to, is that id like to make it multiplayer on;y
[17:06:27] fingolfin says: no skirmish, maybe only a sandbox game
[17:06:29] The_Rogue says: with saving
[17:06:30] fingolfin says: because
[17:07:03] fingolfin says: it saves time/money, it’s more multi-focused, and u build a strong online community, downloadable units etc, people creating their own factions, tech trees etc
[17:07:22] fingolfin says: and instead of balancing once in a while, u literally have a constant updating of the game
[17:07:25] The_Rogue says: and this would be the best thing for a lan party
[17:07:32] The_Rogue says: get some friends together for a weekend
[17:07:38] fingolfin says: like announcing a new weapon, or tech tree, or changing values
[17:07:40] The_Rogue says: load up an epic map
[17:07:44] The_Rogue says: and see who wins
[17:08:01] The_Rogue says: liek the spore sporepedia
[17:08:07] fingolfin says: it’s cool too because u can sit back and play relaxed with a beer, or be really intense about it
[17:08:16] The_Rogue says: how you can look at what other players have done
[17:08:17] fingolfin says: but it doesnt discriminate against one style
[17:08:26] fingolfin says: well, what i was thinking was
[17:08:47] fingolfin says: u can have live info feeds, it records history of commands, movement tech trees etc
[17:09:07] fingolfin says: and not just like the TA demo etc, but in actual text and modules
[17:09:36] The_Rogue says: so if you like something a player has done
[17:09:38] fingolfin says: so someone watching can see orders being made and decisions etc, in fact u can even have a mechanism which feeds back resources into a hyper-faction
[17:09:43] fingolfin says: controlled by an online community
[17:09:47] The_Rogue says: you grab it and put it into your army
[17:10:13] fingolfin says: so a clan goes out and fights and collects resources which feed back into the clan, some kind of crazy meta-ladder
[17:10:28] The_Rogue says: hell yes
[17:10:38] fingolfin says: and maybe u can surrender rather than fighting on, or put up a special galactic gate unit which beams u out
[17:10:43] The_Rogue says: and if we theme it slightly futuristic
[17:10:45] fingolfin says: but at a high cost or something
[17:10:58] The_Rogue says: it would be kinda like your building a galactic empire of sorts
[17:11:05] fingolfin says: yeah, i have notes for the theme, it’s influenced by spore and ‘flanimals’ hehe
[17:11:16] The_Rogue says: we have a galaxy
[17:11:25] The_Rogue says: every new faction starts at a random spot
[17:11:37] The_Rogue says: and as you reach new planets they are generated there and then
[17:12:43] fingolfin says: well there are a lot of possibilities and also headaches about online stuff so basically i want to concentrate on game features, but yeah, it’s wide open
[17:13:00] fingolfin says: i dont wanna go too crazy with MMO style stuff because it limits u in many ways too
[17:13:12] fingolfin says: tho i think the future of strategy games is definitely that way
[17:13:45] fingolfin says: what i was thinking is make it clan based, and a clan can share resources, not just inside say 2v2 games, but can during games send back resources to the server for their opponents
[17:13:58] fingolfin says: and if they are in game maybe even be able to receive them
[17:14:06] fingolfin says: maybe via some special building or something
[17:14:14] The_Rogue says: spaceport
[17:14:17] fingolfin says: and this could be separate from the non-clan system
[17:14:28] fingolfin says: so the rest of the time people play just like they do in supcom/TA
[17:14:38] The_Rogue says: in the clan meta verse
[17:14:50] The_Rogue says: your losing a battle you send a request for support
[17:15:01] The_Rogue says: ship is sent out and arrives maybe an hour later
[17:15:06] fingolfin says: yeah, but it’s cool because if u get the mechanics/resource system right u can actually wind up better after u LOSE a battle than win, because
[17:15:08] The_Rogue says: depending on size of game
[17:15:19] The_Rogue says: using enemies resources up
[17:15:22] fingolfin says: let’s say u are outnumbered and out gunned
[17:15:39] fingolfin says: if u hold out and do really well, like in TA if ur kill/loss ratio is good
[17:15:45] fingolfin says: then u get more resources
[17:16:00] fingolfin says: so it puts the focus back on gameplay and skill, rather than just the winning/losing
[17:16:22] fingolfin says: so the wins/losses are one aspect, but also the skill level, somehow tied into the resource system
[17:16:23] The_Rogue says: yeah
[17:16:42] fingolfin says: which is also why i had the feedback loop of progressive mechanics, u can scale it anywhere
[17:17:04] fingolfin says: whether it be the growth of a unit, the veterancy, the tech tree, the way resources are ties to expansion, etc etc
[17:17:29] fingolfin says: if it is done smoothly then u can change the whole way RTS is played, actually having genuine strategy and depth
[17:18:13] fingolfin says: literally make it into a creative thing, with so many variables that there are constantly new ideas being tested and countered and so on
[17:18:44] fingolfin says: but the balance is not so much an issue, cos like i say, everything has the same mechanics system, so u always start on an even level, and choose the way u play
[17:19:35] The_Rogue says: yeah
[17:19:42] fingolfin says: and u would certainly need, rather than just d/l able units or the odd patch, to literally have a community regulated multiplayer system, where items are constantly being tweaked and changed and new tech and items introduced
[17:19:59] fingolfin says: that’s the open source model, in a way, but applied to content generation
[17:20:21] The_Rogue says: and if a weapon so powerful evolves
[17:20:24] The_Rogue says: and is used
[17:20:25] fingolfin says: that’s what spore is doing too, with letting people make the game even bigger than it is
[17:20:31] The_Rogue says: the community can regulate the weapon
[17:20:39] The_Rogue says: although clans can go against that
[17:21:01] fingolfin says: yes, obviously, there would have to be some kind of rule, or some type of balancing in terms of what is reasonable
[17:21:20] fingolfin says: i was thinking, something like…
[17:21:22] fingolfin says: and wait for it
[17:21:26] fingolfin says: this is potentially big
[17:21:32] fingolfin says: and this is just early ideas but
[17:22:32] fingolfin says: how about, u have some kind of system which monitors what stuff is being used and how often, and the AI or server/game engine itself changes things, for example, the more something is used, the more the price gies up (only very very gradually), so u have a sort of economics syetem
[17:22:35] fingolfin says: *system
[17:23:04] fingolfin says: just like if u by a lot of bread, the price of bread goes up in an economy, which makes less people buy it again etc, it self-regulates
[17:23:15] fingolfin says: like oil prices
[17:23:41] The_Rogue says: oil prices these days is just the oil companies profiteering
[17:23:52] fingolfin says: u let the markets decide, so u apply that to the game, u have a system monitoring the equivalent of say ‘use of monkey lords’ etc
[17:24:08] fingolfin says: and the price of monkeylords goes up because it’s perhaps imbalanced
[17:24:25] fingolfin says: that kind of thing except it’s more realistic, in that it’s applied to tech trees
[17:24:28] The_Rogue says: i think that instead of the price of the item you are using going up every thing else goes up instead
[17:24:32] The_Rogue says: to compensate
[17:24:37] fingolfin says: erm… i mean if u read my rts thing ull see the units r modular
[17:24:58] fingolfin says: well, whatever works
[17:25:21] The_Rogue says: only testing can work it out
[17:25:24] fingolfin says: so, if lasers are overpowered, sure u can tweak the laser if it’s totally imba, but u can let the game regulate the cost
[17:25:38] fingolfin says: so it gets more expensive, so it balances its use
[17:26:12] fingolfin says: (ie. it’s suddenly too expensive so people use it less etc, like a flash tank or something going up in energy cost)
[17:26:37] fingolfin says: that would be totally unique and unheard of before in gaming, a self-regulating system
[17:26:46] The_Rogue says: or things can adapt
[17:26:48] fingolfin says: based upon economics
[17:26:57] fingolfin says: yeah maybe that too
[17:27:02] The_Rogue says: the other side starts using reflective armour to counter it
[17:27:23] fingolfin says: so maybe shields are imba, so they go down very very slowly in power/cost
[17:27:27] fingolfin says: yeah
[17:27:43] fingolfin says: also i have ideas about how modules work, how they interact etc
[17:27:48] The_Rogue says: just think about how it works today
[17:29:29] fingolfin says: hmmm funny, i now have this whole idea about how modules could be shown on the server, like next to rankings, showin the costs and basic stats in a kind of chart, so people logon and go, o shit! lasers are now really expensive
[17:29:31] fingolfin says: haha
[17:29:37] fingolfin says: and maybe
[17:29:51] fingolfin says: once in-game it totally changes your choices
[17:29:59] fingolfin says: i can see issues but maybe something like that can work
[17:30:14] The_Rogue says: or people go o shit! my enemy has countered my lasers, making them useless
[17:30:21] fingolfin says: haha it’s like a commodities/stock market
[17:30:27] fingolfin says: right
[17:30:43] fingolfin says: although im not sure how modules themselves can be generated by the community
[17:30:49] fingolfin says: i think that’s something id rather avoid
[17:30:54] fingolfin says: but u could put in a mechanism
[17:31:07] fingolfin says: so the system regulates strength and cost of them
[17:31:20] fingolfin says: like… emg units etc
[17:31:39] fingolfin says: except the way modules work in my rts is different, because u create units on the fly in-game
[17:31:59] fingolfin says: u attach modules etc, upgrade, retrofit bla bla